It is so weird to know that a widely used sweetener is made from coal tar.

[sdifox]

Anybody in for some fried grasshoppers ?

They can just pulverize it and use it as a protein booster.

 

[William Gaatjes]

.

 

[William Gaatjes]

They can just pulverize it and use it as a protein booster.

Otherwise crickets for country wide use ?
It will prevent the swarming presented by certain biblical texts, so we would be deviating from that. That is good. But we would need a lot of herbs. Can we not make mash from it and then fries ?

Here in the Netherlands they want to forcefeed everybody seaweed. Totally against it.

 

[sdifox]

I love seaweed. Kelp and lever in particular. Farming crickets and turn them into protein boost powder is very efficient. Think bread

I can chew through a kg of this stuff in one go

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[William Gaatjes]

I love seaweed. Kelp and lever in particular. Farming crickets and turn them into protein boost powder is very efficient. Think bread

I can chew through a kg of this stuff in one go

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I rather go for artifical grown sirloin steak and chickenlegs and chickenwings, BBQ saucage.
Petri-dish factory meat. Controlled environment. Can even add genes to create essential aminoacids and needed elelments and vitamins.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I love seaweed. Kelp and lever in particular. Farming crickets and turn them into protein boost powder is very efficient. Think bread

I can chew through a kg of this stuff in one go

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I really hate seaweed. I hate sushi even more. I would imagine that a trichomoniasis infected "flower of love" would smell and taste like that. Yeegh ! 🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮

 

[sdifox]

I rather go for artifical grown sirloin steak and chickenlegs and chickenwings, BBQ saucage.
Petri-dish factory meat. Controlled environment. Can even add genes to create essential aminoacids and needed elelments and vitamins.

Poultry has a much smaller GHG footprint than cows and pigs. I am skeptical we can reach their level of GHG footprint with synthetic protein.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Poultry has a much smaller GHG footprint than cows and pigs. I am skeptical we can reach their level of GHG footprint with synthetic protein.

I do not know such GHG footprint in detail. But positive thinking :
That is what the great profession that researchers and engineers have is about. To solve such issues.

I had to look it up : GHG = GreenHouse Gas.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Two pages of artificial sweeteners and not a word about artificial honey!

 

[WelshBloke]

Two pages of artificial sweeteners and not a word about artificial honey!

Artificial honey?
That's... that's just syrup isn't it?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Artificial honey?

We Tasted the World’s First Real Honey Made Without Bees From MeliBio and We Couldn't Taste the Difference

Californian food tech MeliBio has just unveiled its flagship product, the world’s first-ever real honey made without bees.

www.greenqueen.com.hk

 

[WelshBloke]

We Tasted the World’s First Real Honey Made Without Bees From MeliBio and We Couldn't Taste the Difference

Californian food tech MeliBio has just unveiled its flagship product, the world’s first-ever real honey made without bees.

www.greenqueen.com.hk

But we don't want to get rid of the honey bees!

 

[Torn Mind]

Any influencer who "can't taste the difference" is not genuine and is merely being paid to say that. Isn't molecularly identical honey essentially just sugar? Looks like the employ microorganisms to do the work, so it's something closer.

I mean, I can tell that "Prime" ground beef is utterly an inferior product to grass fed beef or bison even though they come from living cows with drastically different diets. The natural juices clearly taste different.

And don't even get me started with "faux meat". I instantly recognized MSG in impossible burgers.

 

[sdifox]

Any influencer who "can't taste the difference" is not genuine and is merely being paid to say that. Isn't molecularly identical honey essentially just sugar? Looks like the employ microorganisms to do the work, so it's something closer.

I mean, I can tell that "Prime" ground beef is utterly an inferior product to grass fed beef or bison even though they come from living cows with drastically different diets. The natural juices clearly taste different.

And don't even get me started with "faux meat". I instantly recognized MSG in impossible burgers.

MSG can be found in tomatoes and cheese... As in naturally occurring.

Oh and your body makes it too

Wiki stolen

Under normal conditions, humans can metabolize relatively large quantities of glutamate, which is naturally produced in the gut in the course of protein hydrolysis.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Anybody in for some fried grasshoppers ?

Do they have Cicadas in the Netherlands? There are two varieties of these bugs in the states. Depending on the species or variety, their larvae remain dormant in the ground for 17 years or a different number of extended years. I advise you Google Cicada.

So every 17 years -- or otherwise every 7 years -- these big ol' bugs come out of the ground and fill the air with their sounds around summertime. I found a recipe for frying the little buggers in the Washington Post newspaper back in the late 1980s. A little olive oil and some spices -- they are quite tasty -- wonderful!

But carrying on about the sweeteners. I was diagnosed as diabetic about a year ago. I have had to revise my diet considerably. No more Martinelli's Sparkling Cider. Certainly, no more naturally-sweetened soft drinks. Cut back on the carbohydrates -- rice, bread, noodles, pizza crust -- or replace them with brown rice, noodles from a vegetable base (spinach, carrots), or cauliflower pizza crust. Beans are good -- I make an excellent white-bean soup of Great Northern beans and smoked pork-necks or ham-shanks. With the proper preparation, you will not fart a lot. I've also stumbled on a great recipe for cabbage soup -- which is really vegetable soup -- and doesn't differ too much from Borscht. But if you add the beets to it and a little chopped sirloin steak, the resulting Borscht is also wonderful. There are all sorts of wonderful cabbage varieties: your head of green cabbage, or purple/red cabbage, the good ol' American soul-food of Collards, or the Asian Bok Choy. All cabbage!

At first, I was mixing powdered Kombucha with sparkling water. Then, I discovered "Zero Sugar" soft drinks, but finally, I discovered a sparkling water bottled and sold by my favorite local grocery store which had about ten different flavors like "Golden Peach" and "Black Cherry", sweetened with Aspartame.

I then discovered that Aspartame metabolizes into one harmless compound and Methanol -- that's right! -- Wood Alcohol! -- definitely poison!

But the amount of Methanol released into the body is less than the amount produced by the body naturally! So -- I have about 20 bottles of the Golden Peach, and I now have reminded myself to stock up my beverage refrigerator in the dining room. Cold is better!

Another hour of soaking, draining and replacing the water with chicken broth, and I can start the beans . . . What a wonderful day it has been!

 

[William Gaatjes]

Do they have Cicadas in the Netherlands? There are two varieties of these bugs in the states. Depending on the species or variety, their larvae remain dormant in the ground for 17 years or a different number of extended years. I advise you Google Cicada.

So every 17 years -- or otherwise every 7 years -- these big ol' bugs come out of the ground and fill the air with their sounds around summertime. I found a recipe for frying the little buggers in the Washington Post newspaper back in the late 1980s. A little olive oil and some spices -- they are quite tasty -- wonderful!

But carrying on about the sweeteners. I was diagnosed as diabetic about a year ago. I have had to revise my diet considerably. No more Martinelli's Sparkling Cider. Certainly, no more naturally-sweetened soft drinks. Cut back on the carbohydrates -- rice, bread, noodles, pizza crust -- or replace them with brown rice, noodles from a vegetable base (spinach, carrots), or cauliflower pizza crust. Beans are good -- I make an excellent white-bean soup of Great Northern beans and smoked pork-necks or ham-shanks. With the proper preparation, you will not fart a lot. I've also stumbled on a great recipe for cabbage soup -- which is really vegetable soup -- and doesn't differ too much from Borscht. But if you add the beets to it and a little chopped sirloin steak, the resulting Borscht is also wonderful. There are all sorts of wonderful cabbage varieties: your head of green cabbage, or purple/red cabbage, the good ol' American soul-food of Collards, or the Asian Bok Choy. All cabbage!

At first, I was mixing powdered Kombucha with sparkling water. Then, I discovered "Zero Sugar" soft drinks, but finally, I discovered a sparkling water bottled and sold by my favorite local grocery store which had about ten different flavors like "Golden Peach" and "Black Cherry", sweetened with Aspartame.

I then discovered that Aspartame metabolizes into one harmless compound and Methanol -- that's right! -- Wood Alcohol! -- definitely poison!

But the amount of Methanol released into the body is less than the amount produced by the body naturally! So -- I have about 20 bottles of the Golden Peach, and I now have reminded myself to stock up my beverage refrigerator in the dining room. Cold is better!

Another hour of soaking, draining and replacing the water with chicken broth, and I can start the beans . . . What a wonderful day it has been!

To be honest, i did not know we had Cicadas. I had to look it up. We do. But not the famous once in 17 years cicadas you have in the USA.
I remember vaguely an X-files episode where these cicadas.

Methanol, yeah, definitely no one wants that. Bad for the eyes at least...

 

[Jimminy]

To be honest, i did not know we had Cicadas. I had to look it up. We do. But not the famous once in 17 years cicadas you have in the USA.
I remember vaguely an X-files episode where these cicadas.

Are the dutch cicadas the annual type (come out every summer)?

We have them and they're probably about everywhere. They are a little smaller, and not nearly as deafeningly loud as the 11 and 17 year varieties. I'm always glad when those damn things are gone for another decade or more.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Are the dutch cicadas the annual type (come out every summer)?

We have them and they're probably about everywhere. They are a little smaller, and not nearly as deafeningly loud as the 11 and 17 year varieties. I'm always glad when those damn things are gone for another decade or more.

I have no idea. I guess they are.

 

[Paperdoc]

This thread contains many fine examples of HUGE associations with the word "Organic".

In the world of Science and particularly the discipline called Chemistry, "Organic" is the huge class of materials composed primarily of Carbon and Hydrogen atoms, but certainly including molecules also containing Oxygen and Nitrogen plus loads of other atoms (e.g., Sulphur, Phosphorus, Sodium, Potassium, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, etc., etc.) More generally, these are all the molecules common in LIVING organisms, plant or animal. Their impacts on such organisms range from Important or even Essential to Harmful or dangerously toxic or destructive. Two VERY large factors in all of the impacts are the CONCENTRATION of the material, and the EXPOSURE TIME. Of course, those same two factors are vital in assessing the impact of NON-Organic materials on living organisms.

HOWEVER, in the modern world we have adopted a very different use of the word "Organic". This began with discoveries several centuries ago that certain materials derived from plants and animals had beneficial effects on people and other animals. Citrus fruit juice (we know now due to Vitamin C) to prevent Scurvy, Lanolin from sheep for softer skin - the list is vast. In the past century we accepted a major marketing trend to believe that ANYTHING that occurs NATURALLY in nature MUST be harmless, and probably beneficial. Sheer Folly! But the misuse has become almost an article of Faith. So anything extracted from a plant MUST be good, and anything MADE by people must be bad!

Enter Organic Chemistry. This is the sub-part of that field that specializes in these types of molecules. Simultaneously people in this field have found there is an ENORMOUS range of such molecules to be found everywhere in Nature, AND one can find ways to MAKE these molecules synthetically in a lab or factory without needing to find and isolate them from the complex mixture of materials found in Nature. But as has happened continuously throughout history, MISUSE of the knowledge (either out of ignorance or of malice) and resulting harm has been "translated" into a simplistic rule that "from nature" is harmless, and "Man-Made" is dangerous.

One fine counter-example I recall from my career is in large-scale processing of trees for lumber and paper products. For most such uses the first stage is to remove the outer and inner bark to leave just bare woody tree trunks. Now in a living tree, the active growth area is the inner bark where most of the organic chemical reactions of "living and growing" occur. A significant part of those actions are to produce chemicals that are toxic to insects and to microorganisms like fungus - these protect the growing tree from attack. But when the cut-down tree is processed, the first stage produces a "waste stream" of that bark full of such materials, often mixed with water used to soften it. If that is discarded simply by dumping it onto land or into a waterway, those NATURAL protective chemicals are toxic to the normal microorganisms that degrade tree wastes into soil nutrients for re-use in nature. So these natural tree chemicals must be pre-treated to destroy them before that sludge and water can be released into the environment to undergo further natural degradation.

In the field of artificial sweeteners, it happens that the ones discovered early were a among a large class of molecules called Aromatics, which are found as minor components of petroleum and coal that originate from ancient plants. For reasons I do not understand, somehow certain of these molecules stimulate the taste sensors on our tongues in a manner VERY similar to what sugars do, and we experience "sweetness" even though these chemicals have NO nutritional value in the digestive tract. Now, it ALSO happens that SOME other chemicals among those Aromatics are known to be quite harmful in several ways - some as toxins to certain body organs, some as carcinogens that cause cancer. Since we do not understand how those effects occur, either, we are cautious about any and all Aromatic chemicals. That does NOT mean that ALL Aromatics are harmful and must be avoided. However, labelling them as "Coal Tars" creates the belief that they all MUST be avoided (perhaps banned?). That simply is not true.

What IS true, though, is that ANY newly-discovered (or made) material needs careful study before widespread use. That was NOT being done a century ago and more. We have become better at it, but sometimes fail in a rush to exploit new discoveries, whether for direct benefit to us and other living organisms, or for simplistic short-term financial gain.

A small note on "shellac". The classic material under that name is extracted from dead insects and is the major component of a clear wood finishing liquid. But the label has been used also for several other clear liquids that may be applied to other materials to achieve a smooth shiny surface. So I am not convinced that the "shellac" used for candies is the same stuff used for desks and tables.

 

[DeDony181]

This thread contains many fine examples of HUGE associations with the word "Organic".

In the world of Science and particularly the discipline called Chemistry, "Organic" is the huge class of materials composed primarily of Carbon and Hydrogen atoms, but certainly including molecules also containing Oxygen and Nitrogen plus loads of other atoms (e.g., Sulphur, Phosphorus, Sodium, Potassium, Calcium, Iron, Magnesium, etc., etc.) More generally, these are all the molecules common in LIVING organisms, plant or animal. Their impacts on such organisms range from Important or even Essential to Harmful or dangerously toxic or destructive. Two VERY large factors in all of the impacts are the CONCENTRATION of the material, and the EXPOSURE TIME. Of course, those same two factors are vital in assessing the impact of NON-Organic materials on living organisms.

HOWEVER, in the modern world we have adopted a very different use of the word "Organic". This began with discoveries several centuries ago that certain materials derived from plants and animals had beneficial effects on people and other animals. Citrus fruit juice (we know now due to Vitamin C) to prevent Scurvy, Lanolin from sheep for softer skin - the list is vast. In the past century we accepted a major marketing trend to believe that ANYTHING that occurs NATURALLY in nature MUST be harmless, and probably beneficial. Sheer Folly! But the misuse has become almost an article of Faith. So anything extracted from a plant MUST be good, and anything MADE by people must be bad!

Enter Organic Chemistry. This is the sub-part of that field that specializes in these types of molecules. Simultaneously people in this field have found there is an ENORMOUS range of such molecules to be found everywhere in Nature, AND one can find ways to MAKE these molecules synthetically in a lab or factory without needing to find and isolate them from the complex mixture of materials found in Nature. But as has happened continuously throughout history, MISUSE of the knowledge (either out of ignorance or of malice) and resulting harm has been "translated" into a simplistic rule that "from nature" is harmless, and "Man-Made" is dangerous.

One fine counter-example I recall from my career is in large-scale processing of trees for lumber and paper products. For most such uses the first stage is to remove the outer and inner bark to leave just bare woody tree trunks. Now in a living tree, the active growth area is the inner bark where most of the organic chemical reactions of "living and growing" occur. A significant part of those actions are to produce chemicals that are toxic to insects and to microorganisms like fungus - these protect the growing tree from attack. But when the cut-down tree is processed, the first stage produces a "waste stream" of that bark full of such materials, often mixed with water used to soften it. If that is discarded simply by dumping it onto land or into a waterway, those NATURAL protective chemicals are toxic to the normal microorganisms that and degrade tree wastes into soil nutrients for re-use in nature. So these natural tree chemicals must be pre-treated to destoy them before that sludge and water can be released into the environment to undergo further natural degradation.

In the field of artifical sweeteners, it happens that the ones discovered early were a among a large class of molecueles called Aromatics, which are found as minor components of petroleum and coal that originate from ancient plants. For reasons I do not understand, somehow certain of these molceules stimulate the taste sensors on our tongues in a manner VERY similar to what sugars do, and we experience "sweetness" even though these chemicals have NO nutritional value in the digestive tract. Now, it ALSO happens that SOME other chemicals among those Aromatics are known to be quite harmful in several ways - some as toxins to certain body organs, some as carcinogens that cause cancer. Since we do not undersatand how those effects occur, either, we are cautious about any and all Aromatic chemicals. That does NOT mean that ALL Aromatics are harmful and must be avoided. However, labelling them as "Coal Tars" creates the belief that they all MUST be avoided (perhaps banned?). That simply is not true.

What IS true, though, is that ANY newly-discovered (or made) material needs careful study before widespread use. That was NOT being done a century ago and more. We have become better at it, but sometimes fail in a rush to exploit new discoveries, whether for direct benefit to us and other living organisms, or for simplistic short-term financial gain.

A small note on "shellac". The classic material under that name is extracted from dead insects and is the major component of a clear wood finishing liquid. But the label has been used also for several other clear liquids that may be applied to other materials to achieve a smooth shiny surface. So I am not convinced that the "shellac" used for candies is the same stuff used for desks and tables.

That was a lot to read on a random scroll, but wow that was informative;
The main thing I got from this that the "sweetner" is basically just stimulating our toungues to perceive the "sweet" sensation and nothing more, huh interesting

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Well, folks! Dr. Gaatjes most certainly initiated a very interesting thread.

I've mentioned it elsewhere: Two years ago, my primary care doctor told me to cut back on soft drinks and bottled fruit juice because I had "pre-diabetic" blood sugar or A1C levels. Dummy that I am, I didn't pay much attention. Taking care of my bed-bound Moms (who died in October '23), we were really enjoying the Martinelli's Sparkling Cider. After Thanksgiving, 2022, I was buying and consuming between 5 and 10 bottles of that stuff per week. Then in spring, 2023, the doc told me that I'm diabetic -- type-2 diabetes. Maybe I mentioned that before in this thread, but then, that's how I took a keen interest in Dr. Gaatjes original post.

So I had discovered this sparkling water at the grocery store in about ten different flavors sweetened with Aspartame. And I also gave a long dissertation about that here.

I saw my pulmonologist on Friday, and I was STUNNED! -- I had been trying to lose weight from the last measurement of 200 lbs. But instead, at time of the Friday visit, my weight had increased to 206!!!

This morning, I woke up to Velshi on the MSNBC news, conversing with some author over the topic "Food Inc." Velshi observed -- I THINK this is what I heard -- that these artificial sweeteners actually TRICK the body into storing more fat.

So people drinking diet soda to lose weight may find the opposite effect to occur?! And my weight increased 6 lbs in two or three months after hydrating myself exclusively with the flavored, artificially sweetened sparkling water?!!!

I was REALLY beginning to love that stuff! My brother told me today that I should look for some beer with low alcohol content. I can also switch back to plain sparkling water mixed with powdered Kombucha. That's somewhat more trouble, though, than just popping open a bottle of the Aspartame stuff.

 

[igor_kavinski]

That's somewhat more trouble, though, than just popping open a bottle of the Aspartame stuff.

Aspartame and Cancer Risk

Aspartame (NutraSweet, Equal, etc) is one of the most common artificial sweeteners in use today. Find out what we know about its safety here.

www.cancer.org

IARC classifies aspartame as “possibly carcinogenic to humans” (Group 2B), based on limited evidence it might cause cancer (specifically liver cancer) in people. IARC also notes there is limited evidence for cancer in lab animals and limited evidence related to possible mechanisms for it causing cancer.

I'm sorry but you are either naive or just don't care that much about your health. Never trust anything in the supermarket unless you know exactly what ingredients are in it and how they can impact you. Maltodextrin, a common ingredient in many supermarket foodstuffs, can hike your blood sugar wayyyyyy more than even table sugar. Supermarket food shelves should be required by law to declare the items they carry as "slow suicide comfort food".

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Aspartame and Cancer Risk

Aspartame (NutraSweet, Equal, etc) is one of the most common artificial sweeteners in use today. Find out what we know about its safety here.

www.cancer.org

I'm sorry but you are either naive or just don't care that much about your health. Never trust anything in the supermarket unless you know exactly what ingredients are in it and how they can impact you. Maltodextrin, a common ingredient in many supermarket foodstuffs, can hike your blood sugar wayyyyyy more than even table sugar. Supermarket food shelves should be required by law to declare the items they carry as "slow suicide comfort food".

I'd like to THINK I care about my health; I agree that I am relatively naive.

After the spot this morning with Velshi and his remarks about artificial sweeteners, I made another web query and very easily and quickly came up with this:

Time Magazine: Artificial Sweeteners Aren't the Answer for Obesity

In my case, obesity wasn't a serious problem, and I was going to get my weight down to 190. But at 206 lbs, it is an emerging problem.

So I have to confront my weakness for soft drinks with a discipline of plain water, and get back to the Kombucha option I was pursuing through end of the last year. I just went out yesterday and bought 24 bottles of the "Golden Peach" aspartame sparkling water. I should immediately go the grocery and buy a pile of drinking water to consume instead. I'll need to inform my primary care doctor about this stuff. Maybe I can treat myself once a month to a bottle of the Golden Peach.

I had always hated the taste of diet soda, before they started using the aspartame sweetener. I avoided them. So my exposure to this stuff has continued for only about four months or so.

 

[Paperdoc]

I have Type 2 Diabetes and am using a low daily dose of a common drug prescribed by my doctor which has been working well for some years. I also changed several food habits, but I certainly do not feel I am depriving myself badly. One of the very first changes I made is in my use of Iced Tea, a beverage I really enjoy. I used to buy and use the big cans of powdered Iced Tea, although I prefer it more dilute that the instructions - it is too sweet to my taste. So I changed how I made it. I happen to prefer the Earl Grey flavour version of tea, and I am not really picky about the exact taste and quality. So I got one of those large plastic juice jugs that holds more than a large 48 oz tin of canned juice. Then I buy a supermarket's in-house cheaper brand of Earl Grey tea bags.I put 2 bags in the jug, fill it with boiling water, let it steep for 15 to 10 min and remove the bags, then chill it off and store in the fridge. I do not add any sugar - never did use sugar in hot tea, anyway - so it's just flavoured water, but cold and ready any time. That switch must have removed a bunch of sugar from my daily intake.

Another small easy step. I surveyed the breakfast cereal boxes in the supermarket and identified the ones with the lowest sugar contents.It is amazing now much sugar is added to simple cereals, AND to certain flavour versions of common ones! I found the lowest are Shredded Wheat and plain (no extra flavour) Cheerios, both of which I have liked for a long time, so no problem using them! I was amazed at how much sugar is in the "natural" commercial Granola products - surely a bunch of that added and NOT part of the basic ingredients!

 

[sdifox]

Plastic juice jugs are not fit for hot water...